Sungenis vs. White - Catholic vs. Protestant Debates

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Here's a real treat! Catholic apologist (and devoted geocentrist - lolwut?!?) Robert Sungenis debating "Dr." (lolwut again?!?) James White, elder at Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

I remember when I was first learning about Catholic doctrine. I got my hands on all of the James White debates I could because I wanted to find the truth and he seemed so...persuasive, I suppose. I've heard him debate a number of Catholics, a few Protestants and even some Muslims. I even exchanged a few e-mails with him (which he posted, in heavily edited, straw-man created form on his blog -- which still doesn't allow comments where one might challenge his mildly deceptive tactics).

The thing is, the more I learned about Catholic doctrine the less persuasive he became. I started to see where he was manipulating the debate by using ambiguous terms to distort or misrepresent Catholic teaching. I noticed his failure to answer direct questions. I even went so far as to document several of his errors and misrepresentations at the Catholic Answers forum. In my defense, it was Mr. White's idea -- he wanted people to substantiate their allegations. So I did.

ANYWHO...here are two debates, HT to Filipino Catholic. The first is on Calvinistic double predestination. The second is on the Bodily Assumption of Our Lady. Even though I find many of his comments frustrating now (he really should know better by this point), I still like listening to his debates. Hope you do, too. Enjoy!

Predestination

The Bodily Assumption of Mary

Papal Infallibility Debate

Here's a debate I'm looking forward to watching - Robert Sungenis Vs Jame White "Is the Pope infallible?" Sungenis is a rather able Catholic apologist who has done a series or two for EWTN, and James White is an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church and is broadly recognized as one of the most able debaters in this context. Having exchanged a few e-mails with him, I'll say he's sharp but he has a tendency to selectively edit. Take for example his use of St. Athanasius as a proto-Protestant who believed firmly in Sola Scriptura. It might be credible if you only listened to him, but then you read St. Athanasius and find statements like the following about the Blessed Virgin Mary:

O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all. O [Ark of the New] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. Should I compare you to the fertile earth and its fruits? You surpass them. . . . If I say that heaven is exalted, yet it does not equal you. . . . If we say that the cherubim are great, you are greater than they, for the cherubim carry the throne of God, while you hold God in your hands.

—St. Athanasius, quoted by L.Gambero in Mary and the Fathers of the Church (Ignatius Press, 1999), pp. 106-7

Either James White should agree that the Bible teaches that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant (with the immaculate conception and perpetual virginity flowing naturally therefrom) or St. Athanasius categorically didn't believe Sola Scriptura (contrary to the quote-mining of Mr. White). I simply don't see another way to see it. If it's claimed that St. Athanasius was inconsistent in his application of Sola Scriptura...I suppose the same could be said of every other Catholic. Heh heh. Silly defense. But that's Sola Scriptura, not Papal Infallibility...

In any case, the debate is about 180 minutes long, so have a seat and grab a soda.